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         January 16, 2024 Study Session...



         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Okay.  We're going to call the study

    session to order.

         First up, we are going to talk about PimaOnline.  So, Dr. Amick?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I'm not a doctor, but thank you.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Thank you.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Board members, Chair Riel, Chancellor

    Duran-Cerda.  Thank you so much for having us as guests to have this

    conversation about online learning here at the college.

         So we're going to go through a presentation, invite you to ask

    questions along the way, and/or we can have questions and discussions

    towards the end of the presentation.

         Getting started with an overview of what we hope to do here today

    is the following.  Some context of why we are here, the history of

    online learning, a little bit about PimaOnline.  Really want to share

    with you some information about the students, as well.  Then the

    future of online learning at the college.

         I want to acknowledge we have some real time limits here, and one

    of the things we will not be able to do today is to go inside some

    online courses.  But do want to extend that invitation to you all as

    a follow-up or some other type of meeting where we can host you,

    possibly meet with a faculty person so that you can see what's

    happening, what our students are seeing and experiencing inside the

    online learning environment.  Just wanted to offer that.





         This meeting came about with a conversation with Theresa asking

    our dean of distance education, Josie Milliken, wondering how to

    learn more about what's happening with online learning at the

    college.  So thank you for asking that question, allowing us to be

    here today.

         What I would say to all of you as board members is as we go

    through this presentation, some of the awarenesses and takeaways for

    you will be pointed out, but to overview them as we go into them, be

    listening for how you can maintain and expand your awareness of how

    online learning works at this institution and how you can expand how

    to reflect that in your strategies, chancellor's goals, and really

    especially reflecting and understanding how this impacts our learners

    and our students.

         Also wanting you to have a takeaway to understand the sheer scale

    and volume of online learning at this institution and its impact.

    Then probably one of the most important takeaways, it may have been

    already mentioned, is how essential online learning is for the

    students' academic pathway.

         We're going to spend some time going over that student feedback

    and that student voice of how critical online learning is for their

    educational attainment.

         In addition, some of what brings us here is we had this

    experience in the pandemic where everything went online in the matter

    of weeks.  Those of us in online learning prefer to make a

    differentiation there that that was remote emergency learning.  It's





    not to be confused with the online learning that we are offering

    students today.

         It has a lot more work put into the experience, much more

    structured, a lot of the student service aspects are there and known.

    So we don't want anyone to be thinking that that is the online

    learning that we are offering to students based on those experiences.

         Now that we're emerging from this shift of the pandemic, one of

    the phenomena that's been experienced here at the college and

    nationwide, what's being observed with online learning now,

    specifically at community colleges, is this high volume that has

    persisted, and the modality selection that students are making for

    online learning is not just happening here at the college.  It's

    happening across the country.

         We'll talk a little bit more about those details.  But we want to

    continue to share that information with you and be in dialogue about

    how that can be supported for students at the institution.

         As we get started, we want to have a lot of clarity about what we

    are talking about here.  So just to review, some of our modalities of

    how students can take their courses, the most obvious one that we're

    familiar with of course is in person.  I go to the campus, I go to my

    class, I meet with the instructor and my fellow students in person

    probably several times a week.

         Hybrid is driving part of that learning experience into the

    virtual environment, but it's not technically under the PimaOnline

    umbrella, and it's not defined as distance education by the





    Department of Education.  It typically means there is reduced seat

    time, so instead of maybe twice a week or three times a week, a

    student is coming to that class once a week, still connected in

    person with my faculty and my fellow students, but some of those

    activities I can conduct in the online environment.

         It's very attractive for students, has less of a commitment for

    them to schedule appearing on a campus.  Not under the online

    learning umbrella.  Is taking place in the online learning software,

    D2L Brightspace.

         These are the two modalities that are offered for online

    learning.  Virtual means synchronous online learning in that a

    student is required to log on at a certain day and time, and they are

    directly getting instruction from their instructor in that online

    environment.  They are there with their fellow online students.

         Pima uses the term "virtual."  That is a Pima-centric term.

    Other institutions call that synchronous, required virtual meeting

    time, other terms.  "Synchronous" is just such a word that can be

    hard to relate to, so we use "virtual."

         The other aspect of the modality then is what we call online,

    which is asynchronous.  That is the student has the higher level of

    flexibility in that they can do their work as their schedule requires

    them.  They still have due dates.  They still have requirements that

    need to be turned in by dates.  It's not a self-paced course, and

    what we hear from students on these two modalities is a high

    preference for the online asynchronous.  They share why they need





    that higher level of flexibility.

         The virtual offering makes up less than 5% of our offerings.  The

    online asynchronous makes up about 43 or 44% of our offerings.  You

    can see that difference.

         That is returning to the levels that it was prior pandemic.  If

    they are going to take it online, they want the flexibility.  If they

    need to see a faculty person, they're fine just going to the class

    and not having to worry about the technology.

         Next I want to share with you what has been the vision and

    mission defined by PimaOnline.  Our vision being that we will be a

    nationally recognized leader in exemplary online learning

    experiences.  Our mission being that we will provide equitable access

    to innovative and high-quality online learning opportunities and

    student support services that empower students to achieve their

    educational goal.

         I'm very proud to share with you that we are fulfilling both our

    vision and our mission for students, and we will have a chance to

    share some of those details.

         There is a lot of information or experiences folks have with

    online learning, and the one thing I would share with you is it's

    easy to provide online learning.  It's hard to do it great.

         That's one of the things that we have really focused on and

    really feel that our students deserve is an innovative, high-quality

    learning experience and environment that ranges through the course

    that they enter into and experience, the way the faculty conduct





    themselves with their learning and interactivity, and the ease of

    which they can use the services or reach out to help ranging from

    tutoring to being connected to knowing what to expect is some of what

    helps make online learning great at Pima Community College.

         So this is going back to alerting you to one of the takeaways

    that you will want to have from this session.  So when we think about

    the current mission of Pima Community College to empower every

    learner, every day, for every goal, one thing to ask you to keep in

    your mindset is how are we empowering every online learner, every

    day, for every goal?  How are we ensuring that with our strategies

    and actions?  Because we don't want to necessarily single them out,

    but we do want to make sure that the online learning is included as

    we reflect on and fulfill this mission.

         I want to take some time now to go over some of the data so that

    you have a picture of what online learning is at this institution.

    There are many ways to approach it, many ways to slice and dice it.

         One of the ways we are starting here is a picture of the Downtown

    Campus.  You have been there, you know what it looks like and feels

    like, you know about how many students are there.  In fact, this past

    semester there were 3,422 students at the Downtown Campus.

         When we did our data gathering and submission for the Title V

    grant, which is to specifically support Hispanic-Serving

    Institutions, we did a lot of disaggregation of that data.  Just for

    an illustration, there are not quite the same size of the Downtown

    Campus but approaching it 2,877 Hispanic-identifying students that





    are exclusively online.

         That just helps paint a picture of what's happening with online

    learning at our institution.  There is the number of students nearly

    the size that attend Downtown Campus that never come to a campus.

    They are 100% online and identify as Hispanic.

         Part of the grant, and some of it we will talk about, is that is

    a significant number.  And are we ensuring that we are meeting their

    needs so that they are successful in attaining their educational

    goals?

         Another hopefully helpful illustration is the West Campus, the

    largest campus that we have at the college.  As we head into the

    semester, they have 8,012 enrollments at the West Campus.  Now, to

    put that into perspective as we enter into spring 2024, online

    learning has 19,818 enrollments.

         What we want the -- this is another one of those

    what-can-you-walk-away-with moments for online learning at the

    institution, is that online learning now makes up 47 to 48% of what's

    happening at the college.  In fact, 65% of our students took at least

    one online course last year.  So when we think about graduation and

    all of those students going across, 65% of them needed at least one

    online course to help attain their goal to be able to walk across

    that stage.

         It's significant and it's large, as we can see.  Let's continue

    to talk a little bit about that.  So not only does online learning

    make up more than what's happening at the West Campus, it is now





    approaching making up more than is what is happening at all of the

    on-ground campuses.

         So I just want to stress the importance of this volume and scale

    that we are experiencing and how we meet the needs of these students.

    One thing to share is this is the normal phenomena that is taking

    place at community colleges across the nation.  The average is 50%

    online that's being reported and expected to persist.

         The other data point that I would share with you, the average

    that community colleges nationwide are experiencing with exclusively

    online students is 40%.  Pima Community College is around the 30% of

    our enrollment is exclusively online.

         Greg?  Just checking to see if you had a question?

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  Yeah, I did.  That answered one of them.

    Exclusively online.

         I'm curious when the students are choosing, for example, in this

    choice, how often -- and you don't necessarily have to quantify this

    precisely, but I'm wondering, how often are they choosing between

    equivalent in-person or online classes, or how often is the class

    they are looking for only offered online, therefore they're taking it

    online?  Does that make sense?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  You're right.  It is kind of elusive.  We do

    have feedback from hundreds of comments and that appears sometimes

    where they will say I didn't want to take this class online.  I wish

    I could have taken it in person.  That comment does appear.

         The vast majority of our comments, however, are not that.  They





    say I have to have it online, and if I can't get it here, I either

    can't do my educational path or I have to go somewhere else, because

    my life circumstance is that I need to do it online, is the far and

    away majority of that.

         Just to help reflect on that a little bit is the summer

    enrollment.  The summer enrollment is over 70% online.  It's very

    little that are taking place at the campuses.  When we talk to the

    students saying should we put this at a campus, they're like, no, I

    cannot sit in an accelerated condensed course for eight weeks that

    has me in that class for three hours five days a week.  I've got

    stuff I got to do.  I need the flexibility of online in summer

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  Sorry, one other related question.  This

    probably would only be applicable to those that are solely online,

    that 30% that you're talking about.  Does the college keep data on

    whether those students ever utilize the campuses for other services

    or do they just never set foot on one of the physical campuses when

    they are exclusively online?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  We don't have that data to pinpoint that.  We

    continue to have a lot of visibility for the services that are

    provided.  One of the aspects of those services that's an

    accreditation item is that we are required to offer like services

    online that we offer to face-to-face students.

         One of the issues with that is we are supposed to be providing it

    online.  They are welcome to come on campus.  A little bit actually

    in inverse, there are opportunities, there have been in the past, to





    offer services exclusively to online students, like one example would

    be the online tutoring.

         So it was a question, this is going to cost the college or

    students, should we constrain this virtual digital access to only

    those online, or should it be accessed by all students?  This is kind

    of the one of the first conversations we had, Dolores, when you were

    provost.  So many of our services that are for online students are

    accessible to all students.

         Those face-to-face students say, yeah, this helps me a lot.  I

    can access services virtually.  But we are required to ensure them

    that we have them for online students.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  Okay.  So I just want you to clarify.  You

    have stated that online classes, you're also offering them, at least

    one of them, in person or no?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I don't.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  Do we offer that?  Because there are some

    students --

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  There are many, many, many of our classes are

    offered online and face-to-face, as well.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  Okay.  Then I had some other questions, and

    I might be jumping ahead a little bit, but how do you evaluate the

    success rate of your online classes?  I'd like to know how many

    people actually finish.

         What do the faculty members think about the method of teaching,

    what's their preferred method?  Well, I guess I already said that.





    What is the success rate of each method of teaching?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yeah, so our comprehensive success rate in

    online learning has lagged behind face-to-face success.  It ranges

    from about 6 to 9% lower in comprehensive success rate than

    face-to-face classes.  That has been present, I think I have been in

    online learning for 27 years, and it used to be a chasm between the

    success rates.

         We have an initiative every single year to improve that.  That is

    one of our No. 1 focuses is to close that gap.  And we have made

    progress, about 1% or 2% a year, but the college as a whole has also

    been overall improving, so we are still lagging behind.

         Another area where we have done some analysis is instead of that

    comprehensive success rate, we have looked at, there are areas where

    the success rate is parallel.  So for the most part, the entire

    business department has the same success rate online that it does

    face-to-face.  Even at times and some semesters, online, a higher

    success rate, that we see face-to-face.

         We do a lot of crunching on that, and so now where a lot of our

    focus has turned to is in online learning, where is the lowest

    success rate, and putting our efforts there.  One of the newer roles

    we have had is the embedded online success coach.  They are in those

    courses where there is the lowest success rate directly reaching out

    and working with those students to try to help improve those, because

    that is a very serious concern of how it impacts students, but now,

    with the volume of online learning, how it impacts our overall





    success rate in totality.

         The second question you asked about faculty.  There is a lot to

    answer there.  We have faculty leaders in online learning that are

    some of the best in the nation.  They prefer that modality, and they

    lead out on it, because they understand how critical it is for

    students to attain their goals.

         The model that we have has those leaders helping provide

    oversight as a resource and a colleague to the faculty that are

    teaching online so that they have a resource of how to do things and

    a best practice or any scenario that comes along for them.

         The other thing that I would share is prior to the pandemic there

    was maybe more faculty that are, like, I'm not sure if this is good

    online, I love the classroom, I love the classroom, but emerging from

    the pandemic, I have talked to so many faculty that have had a

    conversion experience of I love online now, I see how it helps

    students, I love the D2L tools.

         So not anything real quantitative there, but...

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  I'm sorry.  It has to do with does it take

    the faculty more time?  Does it require more of their time than if

    they were teaching, you know, an in-person class?

         I would imagine they have to prepare and different times they are

    looking at the students or having the class, and then giving feedback

    would be different?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I do think teaching online can be very

    demanding.  And faculty will talk about how to set boundaries and





    efficiencies.  Because one of the things that we really insist upon

    is being very responsive to a student's needs, but yet you can't be

    on 24/7 being responsive, and so trying to set expectations of what

    that is.

         One of the things that can help a faculty person for online

    learning is our instructional design unit does build and create this

    beautiful course.  That is something that Pima has.  My previous

    institutions didn't have that.  The faculty individual had to build

    and create their entire course and put all that content inside that

    learning area.

         So that can help save time.  I think the demands of teaching and

    instruction are high in online learning.  In my experience, I

    actually found hybrid teaching and learning to be the most demanding,

    because I prepared and did it online, and if I was teaching online, I

    would have been done, but then I had to go to the classroom and do

    instruction there, as well.

         I don't know if that helps.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  I have two kinds of questions.  The first is

    do you want us to interrupt you as you go through this to ask

    questions, or --

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Sure.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  -- do you want us to wait until the end?

         I'm concerned I don't get to speak if I wait till the end.

    (Laughter.)

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  No, please.





         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  And the second thing is I think the board

    needs to have a conversation of what a study session is.  Because we

    don't study much.  We get talked at with a bunch of statistics, and

    we really don't get a chance to get our hands in there and play

    around with some things and pick your brains and things like that.

         I'm wondering if we maybe should change the format that the

    presentation is an overview, brief, and that then we can ask

    questions that allows the expert to guide us then to the answer so

    that we have a better feel for what we think we need to know as

    opposed to then what you think we need to know.

         Just a thought for the board.  That's all.

         You want some of my questions now?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yes, please.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  What's the definition of "enrollment"?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Enrollment is, I think a way to differentiate

    it is from head count, so one student can enroll in multiple classes.

    So counting enrollment is how many classes have students come into.

    So one class could have 30 enrollments.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So it would be helpful for me that when we

    talk in those terms that we also --

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Have some definitions.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  -- say there is 12,000 enrollments that

    service 300 students.  That would be helpful for me because it gives

    me a better idea how many are participating in this, and is it a few,

    is it a lot?  Are they taking a lot of courses or taking a few





    courses?

         In regards to rigor, how do you determine that an online class

    has the rigor equal to an in-person classroom?  I have always been

    fascinated at that question and have never known the answer.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yeah.  And, you know, I would characterize the

    last 20 years -- my dissertation was actually on that topic, because

    I taught art.  That was the question of the day in the early 2000s.

    Are these students learning?  Are they learning as well?

         So the academic academy nationwide has thrown their weight

    against that question, and for the most part, a lot of it has to do

    with the quality that's being offered.

         So, for example, through our course development process, we have

    a subject matter expert who is a faculty in that field, and the

    instructional designers, web designers, and digital media producers

    helped them build this with an incredibly detailed matrix to say

    you're doing this activity, what outcome does it match in the course,

    so that you know the work that you're doing is to fulfill certain

    course outcomes?

         Of course those then are measured by assessments.  So there has

    been lots of research over the years, especially in the sciences, are

    students learning the same, are they performing the same on

    standardized tests after they go through classes.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  How do we do that?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  What's that?

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  How do we do that?





         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  By defining the outcomes and doing the

    assessments.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So do we have end-of-course assessments?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  It depends on how they are designed.  Often

    there is a final exam and there's a final assessment in courses.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  That would be a very easy way of simplifying

    that whole question.  You know, the in-class students take the same

    assessment as the online students at the end of...

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  We have a term paper that's comprehensive to

    the class, as in face-to-face or in the online class.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So we're doing that?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yes.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Okay, good.

         For the gen ed students, do we have any data that says our online

    students that receive an AA are doing as well as the in-class

    students that receive that AA when they get to the university system?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I don't have that kind of comprehensive

    detailed information.  What we have received from Arizona State

    University is they give us a report to the provost and chancellor of

    these are the online students that have come to ASU into online

    programs, and incidentally, the No. 1 online program that Pima

    College students are going into at ASU is engineering online.

         So we don't really have that comprehensive success.  We will try

    to track some down and report it back.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Well, you don't need to do it for me.





         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I wonder about it too.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  If I were you, I'd be very curious.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  We do ask that question, and we hear specific

    stories from students but not data points.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  When I was a high school principal, I would

    get a computer printout from the three state universities on every

    one of our graduates that attended that institution and what their

    grades were in every course they took, semester by semester.

         So, for example, the math data could go to the math department

    and they would see kids are having success above average in

    third-year algebra or calculus or second-year calculus, or something

    like that, to try to get an indication if our courses were rigorous

    enough in order to prepare the student adequately for success at the

    next level.

         We don't get any of that from the three state universities?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  I don't know if...

         >> DR. DOLORES DURAN-CERDA:  We can get that data.  I have been

    trading texts with Nic.  So we can provide that for all of us.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  I don't need to see it.

         >> DR. DOLORES DURAN-CERDA:  I know, but I think we should all

    know.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  One of the challenges, when we have tried to

    explore these types of things in the past, is that we don't require

    or say to a student, you're going to get an online degree and you

    have to take online classes.





         The main phenomena that happens with our students is, oh, this

    semester I have to take them all online.  Next semester I'm not

    taking any of them online.  Next semester I'm going to take one or

    two online.

         It's such a mix of courses, and we don't require a student to say

    I am an online student and identify as that, because they want to

    have that flexibility.

         So that's some of where we have run into that data challenge.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Well, in a perfect world, the student would

    know what their learning style was and they would select courses

    based on their own personal learning style.  That's a reach.  But we

    do know students say I need to have that person in there talking to

    me, and we have other students that say, hey, I can do that on the

    computer and I get it.

         I don't know how you get around that, but I'm curious on maybe if

    there's some kind of avenue where we could prepare students to better

    make those choices.  The biggest shock I had at the University of

    Arizona my freshman year is when I went to the basement in the modern

    languages building that had 30 chairs bolted to the floor and the TV

    went on to give a lecture in chemistry.

         I didn't do very well with that (smiling).

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  So one of the ways we try to address that need

    is we have created an orientation to online learning that every

    single student at this college is automatically enrolled into, and we

    also have it available on our website.  So even if you're just





    thinking, like, I don't know if I can do online learning, you can go

    through this orientation class, you know what it looks like and feels

    like, and can help with some of those decisions when you were talking

    about learning styles is for me or not.  We do try to help with that.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  It would be wonderful if a student can

    direct their own learning.  I mean, I think that's what we would all

    try to get to at some point in time.  I'm just wondering how much

    time we spend having those conversations.

         >> DR. DOLORES DURAN-CERDA:  So I can chime in here too with

    advising.  The advisors, when they talk to the individual students,

    they ask them that question.  How comfortable are you with taking

    classes online?  And as Michael said, as I have looked at the course

    shells, there is an orientation or is online learning for you.

         So students take that, and so it helps them understand if this is

    the right approach or not.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Yeah, and I'm talking specifically learning

    styles and not, oh, I have two kids at home and I've got to get to

    work.  That seems to me what I hear about online learning.  I don't

    have time to get on the bus and go across town and go to that campus

    and do that.  I have a time problem.

         Those are two separate issues.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Separate but real.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Not that it doesn't happen or need to

    happen, but to have the student be able to make those choices

    themselves based on probability of success is all I'm saying.





         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  One way that we help folks approach the

    possible challenges of online learning is to help develop the

    awareness of whatever shortcoming you have, it gets turned up to 10

    in the online learning environment.  So if you have a challenge

    reading, you're going to read more than you ever have in an online

    course.

         If you have time management issues or procrastination issues,

    they're going to hit you harder in an online course.  That concept

    also applies to faculty.  Whatever your shortcoming is as a faculty

    person, students are going to see it in online.  So we try help build

    that awareness and provide tools to address that prior to being an

    online course.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So if I'm at a cocktail party and a parent

    walks up to me and says, my student's a senior at Sahuaro High School

    and getting ready to start Pima next fall, should he take online

    classes or in-person classes, what's my answer?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Depends on your student.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  That's not going to help the parent.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Well, we go into a little deeper dialogue

    about that particular student to help navigate those questions, help

    them understand what resources are available so that they could vet

    and get a deeper understanding if it's a good fit for them.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So my answer would be I have no idea, but

    this is where you go --

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yeah.





         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  -- to help you with that decision?  And that

    would be where?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  They can contact me, Josie.

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  I think if we advance forward with the

    presentation, we have a whole section on our students.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  She's just advocating we keep going through

    the presentation.

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  I think as we advance forward through the

    presentation and talk about our students, specific online students

    and why they choose online learning, that will help to elucidate some

    of the questions that come up.

         For many -- well, I think we should just move forward and we get

    to the student area where we go over some of the students and hear

    their voices.  That will really help clarify.

         Then if questions come up at that point, I'm just looking at the

    time, and we want to make sure that we have the opportunity to show

    you what we have.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Thank you.

         So just touching base a little bit on the history of distance

    education at Pima Community College, online learning began in the

    late 1990s and early 2000s.  It's interesting, as we prepared for

    this, we found some presentations to the board that were 10 years ago

    where faculty leaders were here asking for coordinated support and

    quality for online learning.

         That's part of what helped bring me here about 8 years ago where





    I was charged with implementing PimaOnline with the goal of

    centralizing quality so that we could assure that students could have

    a good experience.  That has really been my focus in my career is

    students deserve a high-quality online learning experience with

    clarity and not confusing so that they can achieve their educational

    goal.

         We could spend a significant amount of time here helping you kind

    of understand how online learning works at our college.  Just an

    overview is we have about, and, you know, I don't want to be throwing

    out too much information so it's overwhelming, but just

    comprehensively, we have a unique structure.  I mentioned the faculty

    leaders that Maria was asking about, how do faculty view online

    learning.

         We have 17 dedicated faculty leaders that they help us decide on

    expectations or requirements of what students need and what faculty

    need.  They are leaders in innovation.  They are pioneering the work

    of artificial intelligence.  They are very involved with the cutting

    edge of education and exploring it.

         We have an area of online student success and student services

    that are dedicated as specific needs of online students to ensure

    that there is a focus there, and helping address those.  That is what

    helped bring the Title V Hispanic-Serving Institution grant into

    place.  It really expands the support for all of our students, all of

    our online students.

         We have an area called the center for learning technology.  This





    is our instructional design unit that helps build these online

    courses.  There is web designers involved with that.  There is a

    digital media production that's involved with that.

         They also have a fairly new unit of educational technologists.

    One of the challenges again of doing online learning is, like, hey,

    here's this cool technology.  Here you go.  Not helpful.  We have a

    process that gets feedback from the students and faculty about how

    educational technology needs to be supported so it works well for the

    students.

         We have over 23 programs and certificates that can be completed

    100% online.  We have an office of partnerships and operations that

    helps make sure that everything is working, and they are also charged

    with supporting the oversight for the out-of-state online students

    that we have at the institution.

         We have a quality review process.  You were speaking to that,

    Dr. McLean, of how do we ensure there is quality.  We have so many

    courses and so many students, that is a significant concern.

         So we now have an office dedicated to making sure all kinds of

    quality assurance is met in these online courses.  From the minute a

    student steps into that course, we take that very seriously that

    there is clarity of information, accuracy of information, because

    that can be the point right there where they say, I can't do this,

    and log out.

         We have also under online learning, which is a little unique, is

    the Learning Management System, the online environment.  D2L





    Brightspace is managed by my area.  That's been awesome, because it's

    so collaborative with the faculty to ensure that it's set up and

    functioning the way it needs to for students and faculty.

         It's utilized across the whole college.  Every class that's

    offered here has a shell created in that online learning environment,

    and they use the electronic gradebook.  They have over 700,000

    log-ins a month into this environment, so just kind of sharing that

    piece.

         We host a PimaOnline educators conference once a year with 300

    folks from Pima attending.  About 25 from across the nation.  We have

    received national recognition for how we use our LMS to do that.  One

    of the amazing things about PimaOnline is how the national experts

    have evaluated and responded to it comprehensively.  We have received

    national awards for our faculty being recognized as outstanding

    online instructors.

         Our students have been recognized.  Our online classes have been

    designated some of the best in the nation.  We have received

    accolades for innovation and educational technology, and most

    recently have been recognized as the best online learning community

    college in the top 100 from Newsweek and the top 10 from Forbes.

    It's very overwhelming and important for you to recognize the

    comprehensive acknowledgement of the good way that we are doing

    online learning.

         Also wanted to give you some of the financial picture.  This does

    cause me to remember one other financial thing I wanted to share with





    you, and that is in regards to open education resources.  OER is a

    free free-of-copyright textbook that students utilize in their

    courses.

         When I first arrived here in 2015 and '16, the students were

    coming to the board saying we've got to reduce the textbook costs,

    and we started an initiative in PimaOnline to create a complete

    degree pathway where a student would not have to pay for one

    textbook.

         The spring of 2017 I remember meeting with President, at the

    time, Lorraine Morales to share that we had saved students $27,000

    that they did not have to pay for textbooks.  We were so celebratory.

         Last semester, we saved students over $980,000 that they did not

    need to pay for textbooks, and this initiative has saved students

    over $11 million.  Think about that with student loans.  There is not

    $11 million worth of student loans out there in our community that

    our students don't have to deal with.  So I did want to mention that.

         Here's the operating budget for PimaOnline, a little over $1.8

    million.  Please note this does not include any of the salaries.

    It's just our operating budget.  One-third of that budget is going

    for D2L Brightspace, the Learning Management System, that is used

    across the college.  I just wanted you to have some of that financial

    picture.  We think it's a bargain for half the enrollment.

         So now what we really wanted to get a chance to share with you,

    information directly from our students.  Again, going back to some of

    the three or four takeaways for the board, we advocate for really





    understanding the voice of the online student and the needs of the

    online student.

         I mentioned that our students have been recognized and they are

    contributing to the culture of PimaOnline.  Webster Rose was our

    commencement speaker first time we came back in person after the

    pandemic, sharing his inspiration with us.

         Namrata Patel served as a senator and a huge advocate for online

    learners and their needs and would let us know, you can't do this,

    you have to do this for online learners.

         They both completed their programs 100% online.

         We have been doing all kinds of engagement with online students

    in a variety of ways and just wanted to share with you a little bit

    of what that looks like.  When we have our conferences, we take the

    time to ensure that we have a panel of online students.  It is one of

    the most popular and favorite amongst conference or retreat

    attendees, because they get to hear directly from online students.

    What do you like?  What doesn't work?  What bothers you?  Do you like

    this?  It's been a really great method for one of the ways that we

    get direct student feedback.

         Just sharing with you some of the data, Dr. McLean, you were

    referring to this of why do students take online learning, these are

    national statistics that we're looking at comprehensively here, and I

    want to go ahead and step to some of the data we have from PimaOnline

    students.

         So again, very important that we hear from our students.  We





    partake in a survey every two years called the Priority Survey of

    Online Learners where students give feedback about every aspect of

    their online learning experience.  They share how important it is to

    them, how satisfied or dissatisfied they are with it.

         It also surveys why they are taking online learning, and you can

    see some of the examples here of how important online learning is for

    them in their educational pathway.

         With this survey, we first implemented this survey in 2016 in

    which online learning at this college was below average in every

    single category compared to the national data point.

         We will be doing it again this March.  We do it every two years.

    Two years ago we were above average in over 75% of the categories in

    student feedback and student satisfaction.

         So getting to some of the direct voice of our students, this is

    from the survey.  We received I think over a thousand comments.  So

    going into some of the qualitative feedback, that's important for us

    to know.

         I could not have taken this path if I had not had this

    opportunity to go to college online.

         That summarizes a lot of what we hear from our students.  For me,

    it's always super fun to ask a student why are you taking this

    online?  We put them in these categories, but they always have a

    really interesting story to share.  The most recent one was Nadia had

    just moved here from Wisconsin with her significant other, and she is

    starting a business, a dog-sitting and dog-boarding business, and





    she's, like, I have to take my classes online because I have to be

    here with these dogs and take care of them.

         So that was one of the more unique ones I have heard recently.

         Also family needs.  Whether it's taking care of children or a

    significant other or older family members, they need to take it

    online, they can accelerate it online, and the student sharing that

    it was a good experience for them.

         Other comments from students.  So happy to have taken my online

    classes.  They fit my schedule.  I like being able to take my classes

    strictly online because it gives me the ability to work full time.

         This is something that we're hearing from our students more and

    more because of the economic situation.  The high cost of rent.

    Students are sharing I have to work.  I have to be able to make my

    payments.

         So without online learning, I would not be able to go to college.

    I'd have to wait and try to get the money and then be able to go and

    work less.

         It goes back to that point of really wanting to make sure that

    you can manage your time.  We have a time management calculator in

    our online website that can help students identify that.

         This other comment here, just trying to round this out, an

    in-person class was too far away, what you were kind of asking about

    previously, Board Member Garcia, about it was not offered at the East

    Campus, it was offered at the West Campus, we do get some of those

    comments.





         Here's a student that was face-to-face.  The pandemic taught them

    that they could be online.  It helps them balance their work, school,

    and parenting.  A foreign student thanking us for having online

    learning available.

         So just giving you this picture of the direct voice of our online

    students.

         Now, I just want to shift a little bit into this student success

    department focus.  There is a lot going on on this screen, but, you

    know, getting into some of your questions, Dr. McLean, we have the

    orientation to online learning.  We have sessions that students can

    sign up for to say, hey, teach me, help me prepare to be on online,

    want to talk directly to a person to help me with that.

         We have other students employed as PimaOnline navigators.  They

    host hours.  Folks can log in on the weekend, talk to a student.  I'm

    not sure what I'm supposed to be doing right now but I have to get

    this done, they can connect with a navigator.  I talked about our

    coaches as well that were focused on those low success courses and

    want to improve that.

         A lot of what I just showed you ties into this Title V grant

    that's going to allow us to expand on our success coaches, expand on

    an engagement coordinator who just started today in his role.  Also

    looking at some engagement software that the University of Arizona

    also uses.

         The main focus and what we hear from our students, they want a

    sense of belonging in that online environment, just like we are





    seeking to provide that here at the college in our campuses.

         Starting to conclude here.  I just want to go back to some of

    those concluding takeaways, asking you to continue to expand and

    reflect on the awareness of online learning at the institution and

    its sheer scale and volume and how that plays into strategies and

    supports and being aware of how critical online learning is for the

    attainment of educational goals that our students have and that they

    share with us.

         With that, I want to ask Jeff Thies to come forward and speak to

    some of the future of PimaOnline that we have been dialoguing about.

         >> DR. JEFF THIES:  Good afternoon.  How's everybody doing?

         I'm going to be brief because I know you probably still have

    other questions you want to ask Michael, Josie, or myself.

         So one of the challenges when I stepped into this role is to

    focus the college on two things, and they are actually part of the

    chancellor's goals.  One of them is kind of in that persistence,

    retention, completion, and we have to disaggregate, we have to look

    at students by race, ethnicity, by age, by program, by modality.  In

    other words, are they taking classes at a campus, multiple campuses,

    online and campuses, fully online.

         We have to be thinking about that in an efficient and an

    effective way moving forward.  So what is the future model of how we

    support our students regardless of the modality, keeping in mind all

    the great successful things that we have done in the PimaOnline

    division over the late eight years, but also recognizing we have a





    limited resource pool, right?

         And how do we distribute our human and operational resources in a

    way that continues to move the needle forward for success for our

    Hispanic/Latino students, Native American students, students that are

    fully online, students that are part time and only taking six

    credits, students in a Level I cert, students in an associate's of

    science looking to transfer to the U of A.  What are we doing to

    improve student success?

         Those are the two kind of deeper thoughts that are going through

    the process of how can we help support our students.  A lot of what

    you see in the Title V StriveOnline Grant is supporting students from

    those wraparound services, giving them a location.  Although it be

    virtual, we realize that some students, it's kind of like DoorDash,

    right?  I never would have thought people were going to have to

    deliver food on a regular basis to people.  The store is half a mile

    away.  But how is it we're at a point now where DoorDash and these

    other companies, it's not like we are all confined to our houses

    still, right, like we were in COVID, but people got used to a luxury,

    maybe not even a luxury, keeping their life simpler in one way so

    they could be more dedicated in others, right?

         So that idea of flexibility and accountability and support that

    we need to have, refocusing always on the student success, their

    experience at the college, how can we make it better, how can we get

    to our institutional targets, because that's the provost's office's

    guiding light is institutional Target 2 this year, and all years





    obviously, but we really are hyperfocused on Target 2, which was the

    idea that we were doubling completers in those three areas, right?

    Our Hispanic-Latino, our Native American, and our African-American

    populations.

         So how does the resources that we have, kind of the neutral,

    zero-sum game of resources that we have our access to best utilized

    to support our students moving forward.

         So we held some forums in the fall to get some feedback

    college-wide on the different types of models that could exist in

    PimaOnline, starting from a decentralized model to a fully

    centralized model.  Think of the fully centralized as what U of A has

    done by purchasing Ashford, what the University of Idaho has done by

    trying to purchase the University of Phoenix.  They have stand-alone

    colleges that have their stand-alone employees.

         We're not suggesting that we go anywhere near that, but there are

    variations between that and there is no PimaOnline and we just expect

    the college to operate online modality courses within its regular

    structure.  So you can imagine there is a blend of possibilities in

    between those two extreme scenarios.

         I'll end it at that so we have some time for more questions.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  I have one.  In terms of that last slide

    where you're talking about the future, in terms of what we, as the

    board, have the power to give you, like, what do you need?  What are

    you lacking or what barriers can we help you bring down in terms of

    being able to move forward in the direction that you want?





         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  So I think one of the things was the

    objectives that we noted, just to ensure that part of the reflection

    is how are we serving every learner, every day, for every need, and

    including that awareness that online learning is 47% to 48% of what's

    happening at the college.

         >> DR. JEFF THIES:  I think although it's an ongoing

    conversation, has been for a while, is just understanding where we

    are with respect to having brick-and-mortar spots in this

    online/virtual place, and how is it that we manage the current five

    brick-and-mortar campuses and this online space.  It's not going

    away, right, so how does that factor into a lot of the decisions that

    need to be made moving forward.

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  One other point to that is, Dr. McLean,

    you were asking earlier about that component of learning style and

    then also that component of need for flexibility, the ability to fit

    it into a life.  One of the pieces of that is that in reality, some

    students sacrifice what they know might be the best modality for

    them, face-to-face, when they take online because they know it is the

    only option that will offer them the opportunity to succeed.

         One of the beauties of that is that with our course developments,

    we can use utilize strategies like a strategy called UDL, Universal

    Design for Learning.  It's a strategy to use to develop online

    courses so that they meet the needs of different learners with

    different styles of learning.

         So that one of the things that we know, that research has shown





    can increase success rates, are those wraparound services.  So the

    Title V grant is going to offer a great opportunity to elevate

    student success.

         Peer-to-peer mentoring, providing that sense of belonging,

    research has shown that that peer-to-peer, higher than anything else,

    higher than instructor-to-student, can elevate a student's

    opportunity for success.  So the Title V grant is going to help with

    a lot of that.

         Still, there are other areas where we know that we could, if we

    had the additional resources, we could provide the additional

    supports to students to achieve a higher level of success.  Because

    when they enter an online classroom, they don't see people around

    them.  They don't see students walking by in the hallway, and that

    can feel isolating.

         But the more that they have that support and have these

    opportunities to connect with others in the environment, the greater

    their opportunity for success.

         So to Chairperson Greg Taylor, your point, one of those things is

    resources, and carrying this information forward, both the student

    need for online learning, the community need for online learning, how

    it serves students in the community, the value of the online courses,

    and the consistent quality of improvement efforts, and the need that

    to even provide additional student support does require additional

    resources.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  Can you give me an example of one of those





    things that we don't do now that could be implemented to get more of

    that connectedness?

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  Sure, exactly.  What you'll find

    nationally is that it is not uncommon to find a success gap at any

    institution of higher education between online and in-person.

         One of the resources that we know from other institutions that

    have utilized it that has helped is to have faculty mentors, and

    these are mentors hired specifically for that role.  They don't teach

    classes as a faculty member would.  Rather that isolated role that's

    specifically there to serve faculty and help them interact more

    -- they are skilled and experts in strategies for that

    instructor/student interaction.

         So that's one additional resource that would help.  And then the

    more we have a growing demand, to integrate success coaches into

    online courses.  That's another area where there is just a lack of

    resources, to be able to provide that success coach resource in as

    many online courses as we'd like to.  Particularly those that are

    struggling with a lower success rate compared to others.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  Thank you.  This is more of an editorial

    comment than a question, but just, you know, what struck me when you

    were talking, especially when you were talking about budgets, you

    know, I kept thinking back to what we spent a million dollars on that

    air conditioning thing and 29th Street a couple months ago.  I'm not

    saying that was the wrong choice.  I mean, there were a lot of

    reasons why it was.  But that million dollars could have increased





    the budget for a third of our students by 50% in terms of what was

    going on on here.

         So when we're having conversations and Dave's presenting these

    things and I keep harping on efficiencies, you know, and talking

    about all this physical infrastructure that we maintain, because we

    do that, we can't do things like this.  This is a third of our

    students that are fully online, and so we are so hamstrung by this

    physical infrastructure that we maintain, it really does impugn our

    ability to do things that could make a meaningful difference for

    giant chunks of the student population.  For whatever that's worth.

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  As vice president of distance education,

    Michael Amick shared earlier, is that we know that this is a lot,

    that we went through a lot of information today in a very short

    amount of time.

         So we would be happy to coordinate through the chancellor's

    office some individual or group meetings and tailor those

    specifically to questions you'd like to have to be able to expand on

    what we went over today.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  I do have a few more questions.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So do I.  A comment first.  I would prefer

    to have the slides and you abbreviate the presentation, because what

    I was fearful of, and what I said earlier was, you're going to talk

    and then we're not going to have enough time to talk, and we are

    almost 10 minutes over.  So it did happen.

         I think another piece of this, when we see a budget -- I'm not





    talking at you.  I'm talking to everybody.  When we see a budget

    slide where it says the tuition revenue is this, the expenses is

    this, net tuition revenue is 1.879, that tells me nothing.  It

    doesn't tell me what the cost is.

         There is going to be, my prediction, several conversations about

    differentiated tuition.  What does this mean to that conversation?

    In other words, how much does it cost us to deliver a unit to a

    student online versus how much does it cost us to deliver a unit,

    same unit, to a student in person?

         It's going to help us make some budget decisions in the future

    that's going to be essential.  I think sometimes we skirt around

    that, because even when Dr. Bea gives us a presentation, well, it

    costs it us this much for increment, it costs us this much for an

    operating expense increase, and it doesn't tell us how much it costs

    us to educate a student.

         So I think in the future, when we get these presentations, I

    think we ought to start thinking that way, if it costs more to do

    this, we maybe need to charge the student more.  If it costs less,

    then we may have a profit that would offset some other operating

    expenses.

         That's the kind of stuff I would like to see in these

    presentations so that we can use that data to make good, informed

    decisions about what we want to do as far as the budget is concerned.

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  If I may, if it would help, one of the

    reasons we included that slide was to highlight that our LMS, our





    Learning Management System, represents about a third of the budget,

    and the point there that that is our facilities budget essentially.

    But that serves the whole institution.

         So in these conversations that we have had, the shaping the

    future of PimaOnline, that's part of that conversation, does it all

    belong in one budgeting area.

         I don't know if that's helpful, but that was part of the intent

    in including that slide.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  I'm not sure I read that, but Pearson is the

    one that provides that service?

         >> DR. JOSIE MILLIKEN:  The LMS is D2L Brightspace, and that is

    the Learning Management System.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Are you looking at this slide?

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  I was looking at slide 32.  It's in there a

    couple of times.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Yes.  Sorry.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  You don't have to answer that.  I'm just

    trying to make a point.  And the point is give us the information but

    don't read it to us, and let us assimilate some of that, and then

    maybe we have more time for this kind of conversation, which...

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  We only went through half the slides.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Well, I was thinking, 46 slides, one minute

    per slide, and we don't get to talk.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  We only wanted to have this as additional

    information, just as you've cited.  I will say that Dave Bea does ask





    those questions, especially related to these partnerships, and we're

    trying to illustrate the amount of revenue that comes in.  But he

    does ask us to expand on what are the actual costs, what are the

    comprehensive costs for anything that's not core to just PimaOnline,

    any type of partnership.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  I'm sure he does, and you can imagine the

    questions we ask him when we're talking about the budget.  Just for

    future reference, that's my personal opinion.  I don't know how the

    other board members feel.

         >> DR. DOLORES DURAN-CERDA:  We wanted to provide, this is more

    of an introduction, an orientation to PimaOnline, and we can have

    subsequent study sessions or more conversations, or as Josie said,

    you could meet in pairs or they can go through a demo with you so you

    can see fully what the Brightspace is.

         That's the portal where each faculty member, not just PimaOnline,

    but the entire college, uses to enter the classroom, the virtual

    classroom.  But we'll keep that in mind about the format.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  So I want to say thank you.  I have benefit

    of having taught online.  I did teach, build, lead, all those

    courses.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Awesome.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Before they required all of our faculty to

    use the D2L gradebook, I was telling everybody in my buildings at the

    East Campus, this is the coolest thing.  A student comes up to you

    and says, hey, what's my grade?  Look online.  I showed so many of my





    fellow faculty members how to put it on the D2L gradebook.  So I

    firmly believe in all of that.

         Now, having said that, I have two concerns.  The questions we ask

    are super important as far as getting data, right?  If we don't ask

    the right questions, we don't get the answers that are beneficial to

    us, trying to grow our programs, trying to make them better, right?

         And I think, you know, some important questions are the questions

    of would you prefer to take this in a different modality?  If so,

    how?  Because I think that's really important, right, for people who

    are naysayers to online learning, if you can show that 62% of our

    students say, no, this is the best modality for me, right, and then

    if some say, then why didn't you take it in your other modality?

    Well, it wasn't offered.  That also gives the college some

    information that I don't think we are getting right now.  So that's

    my first thing about the data.

         My last experience teaching online when I retired, when I was

    adjunct I taught one semester, and it ruined me for teaching forever,

    I believe, and the reason for that is because the students weren't

    prepared, the students weren't willing to do the work online.  It was

    a Calc I class, which I think in best of times is a tough class to

    do.

         So I think we really need to make sure we're doing -- by the way,

    only one student passed with a D.  Nobody else passed in the class.

    So that means all of those students, no retention, no persistence no

    whatever, right?  I had 5% of my grade they had to do a video and





    present it because of the lead class I took, they showed us how to do

    the videos.  I thought that was brilliant.  Then 5% of their grade

    they had to participate once a week in a virtual meeting that I would

    have online.  I'd have it every day, but you didn't have to go every

    day.  You had to go only one day.

         All of the students did hardly none of that.  When, at the very

    end of the semester, I said why didn't, you missed your D by 47

    points.  You would have had all of those points, you would have had a

    C.  Well, it was only 5%.

         So I think that a lot of times students don't realize what those

    percentages mean.  You can miss your D or your C or you're a by 5%.

    Why make that mistake?

         Then the last thing I wanted to say was is this a moneymaker for

    the college?  I don't mean to be crass or rude or any of that.  But

    is it more, is it financially more efficient to teach online than it

    is to teach in classrooms?

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  So I just want to say I'm sorry that you had

    such a challenging experience.  I hear those stories.  I have heard

    them constantly throughout my career.  And again, it's my focus to do

    the work so that there are items in place that you, as a faculty

    person, and those students have a better experience.  I'm very

    thankful for the work our team has done to address that.

         As far as the financial item, you know, I think maybe Dave Bea

    could speak more directly to what our financial situation is when it

    comes to online learning, but that is a common topic and common





    question nationally.

         Depends on who you talk to and how it's analyzed.  Some say that

    it saves a ton of money, because you don't have to deal with

    facilities costs.  But what really comes out is if you want to do

    online learning with a high level of excellence, you can't just do it

    on you don't need anything, we don't need to structure this.  There

    is significant structure and significant resources that are needed to

    do it well, especially for the students, and they deserve that.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Just my final question, this is not part of

    my knowledge.  When I was teaching, online classes were in the

    department.  So online math was part of the math department, and I

    heard that it's not that way anymore.  Maybe not now, because we do

    have a lot more things, but that would be one thing that would be

    important for all of the board to know why we moved from a

    departmental-type modality, I don't know if that's the right word, to

    where it's housed under PimaOnline, all online courses.  And I could

    be wrong there.  Maybe that's not the case.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  That was such a problem when PimaOnline was

    implemented that we put all that data back, so the curriculum and the

    enrollment counts are by the area for mathematics.

         It's our job to build the course and provide all the services for

    the faculty that are teaching it, the students that are taking it, so

    that they have a high-quality experience.

         So it's kind of both.  The curricular aspects definitely belong

    to the academic division.  But we do have faculty leaders.  We have





    mathematic faculty leaders that do the scheduling for online, do the

    support for those faculty.  So it's a mix.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Thank you all so much.

         >> MICHAEL AMICK:  Thank you so much for all of your questions,

    and hope to continue to follow up with them.  Thank you.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Then our second item is Libby and Joseph.

    ACCT legislative summit agenda.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Chair Riel, members of the board, I'm Joseph

    Mais, director of government and community relations.  I'm speaking

    on behalf of Libby who has a little tickle in her throat, and out of

    abundance of caution is masking tonight.  I will be the standard

    bearer.

         We are planning our annual trip to D.C., as you know, in

    February, in a few weeks.  I thought for the agenda I could quickly

    go over what I have in this packet for you.  I could talk a little

    bit about some of the priorities of things we want to make sure we

    cover while we're in D.C. with our elected officials, and then I'll

    briefly introduce the students we are bringing along with us.

         In your packet, we have a lot of things sort of pulled together.

    The first page is sort of the itinerary so you can see what

    expectations of your schedule will look like.

         Right now our contract lobbyist, Tracy Tucker in Washington,

    D.C., is planning meetings with members of congress.  She always has

    a tricky job doing that, but this trip in particular is a short week

    for congress and so it's harder to pin them down on times.  That is





    not in here, but I will be updating this as those meetings land.  I

    will have another copy of that when we have our journey.

         There is some material from the Association of Community College

    Trustees that is their legislative priorities and some of the things

    happening, just an FYI in that first section.

         In the second section is information on Pima Community College,

    introducing who we are, and important information for members of

    congress.  We often refer to these things as leave-behinds, because

    we will make copies of these that we can leave in the congressional

    offices to give them information about our schools, some of our

    successes, some of the things we do.  It includes things like

    enrollment and number of our demographics and information about, for

    instance, the percentage of students online.

         In section 3, we have the talking points.  So this is the

    document that we want to make sure you get a chance to look over.

    These are the things we want to make sure we sort of touch base on

    when we have meetings with elected officials in Washington.

         The next section is just a quick outline of those elected

    officials, so it tells you who they are and some of the statements or

    their own introductions from their online websites, and some of their

    key posts in congress, their committee assignments.

         Then the last section has data from our daily registration

    report.  One was pulled today for this spring, and the other one is

    from the last day of the fall report.

         So going over a couple of important things that I wanted to make





    sure just to bring to your attention regarding the talking points,

    one of the things we always want to do when we are in front of our

    members in the federal legislature is to thank them for their work.

    We have a delegation right now that is very supportive of Pima

    Community College and has done a lot for us.

         In particular, we want to express gratitude to both of our

    senators who have done quite a bit of work to help in their

    appropriations priorities that are still being finalized and

    negotiated, $2.5 million for the college related to the health

    professions.

         That same program was proposed by Congressman Grijalva in the

    House of Representatives, though the bill that the House passed did

    not have that 2.5 million, but we can still thank him for the efforts

    he made on our behalf.

         Then we met with Ciscomani's staff.  A few of the board members

    were at that tour that his staffer did of the health professions

    construction.  In that, she mentioned that Ciscomani would be looking

    out for that when the sort of two sides are negotiating a budget and

    trying to make sure that we can keep something in there or at least

    look out for Pima in some ways.  So we can thank him for those

    efforts, as well.

         The other big issue, just to highlight, is the short-term Pell.

    Short-term Pell has been a supported bipartisan item for many years,

    and Pima has been pushing for that for a long time.  It's hard to

    move legislation that's federal level, and so those things take a





    long time, but this year the House of Representatives did in fact

    pass a bill.

         The bill in its form that the House passed has a couple of things

    that Pima might be concerned about, but I think there is still a

    negotiation with the senate that hasn't passed a bill yet and has a

    different bill in mind.  We have shared with senators some of our

    concerns there.

         The second point I would make is that the bill that, in its

    current structure, if it does pass, is really a tester bill.  It's

    not a very large authorization of money.  So if it was passed, it

    wouldn't have much of an impact on Pima regardless, right, because

    the amount of money they are talking about is a pretty small sum for

    a national program.

         So a lot of it is meant to be sort of testing the waters and

    seeing how this program goes so that we can make it stronger in the

    future so we don't have to make, you know, we don't have to pound our

    fists about our disagreement with the bill in its current form,

    because it's largely insignificant currently in that it's very

    significant to get this done, but it's maybe less significant the

    details for now.

         Then the third point I would make is that we definitely want to

    be seen, and we make strong efforts here as partners in solving the

    problems rather than sort of focusing on our disagreements with the

    stuff.  I think we can share, especially with the senators, that we

    would like to see their bill move forward with some of our





    priorities, but we don't have to focus on the negative parts of the

    bill per se.

         I'm happy to answer questions as we go.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  My experience when dealing with either the

    state or the federal representatives, that they tend to light up when

    the students start speaking.  I'm wondering, is our strategy this

    year to let one or all the students make this presentation, and then

    we listen to the comments made by the elected official or staff, and

    enter in after that conversation has started?

         What do you expect us in that regards to do?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yeah, that's a great question.  I did suggest in

    my conversation with the chancellor that it maybe makes sense to have

    the students go first, because as you said, the elected officials in

    Washington, they do light up when they see students.  That is such a

    selling point for the college.

         So I do think it makes sense to maybe have them be the first

    speakers, and then we can move to board members and others who want

    to share their thoughts.  I don't want to make the decision for you,

    but I think that makes sense.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Well, that has my vote.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Great.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Because there is just no question that their

    influence is going to be greater than ours.

         And can you give us a sense of the anxiety that's going on right

    now about November with the people that we hope to speak to?  I mean,





    there are some that are going to be there no matter what happens, but

    it seems to me that there is an upheaval going on right now with the

    Rs and the Independent, whatever she decides she's going to be.

         I would suspect we're not going to talk about any of that.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Right.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  But there is a comfort level with

    Congressman Grijalva that probably doesn't exist with most of the

    other ones.  Do we need to make a statement about support in the

    past?  Is that one of our strategies?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Support?  I'm sorry, you said make a statement

    about --

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Their support of us in Southern Arizona.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  I do think it's important to thank them for the

    work they've done for Pima.  I think, yeah, it is a good idea not to

    wade into the political atmosphere.

         I think one of the benefits of February is that we are still

    early enough that it isn't the center of attention quite yet.  I

    mean, we can still have a conversation about our policy priorities

    without, and people will be listening to the staff and the elected

    officials will be listening without being completely distracted by

    the...

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Perhaps worth consideration is having the

    students make a presentation on how you can help us, and then let

    maybe us thank them for their support that they've given us over the

    past, and divvy it up that way, that we can speak somewhat





    politically in that regard, that thank you so much for what you have

    done for us, and ask Chair Riel if she gave Ciscomani an A or a B,

    and can she change the grade.  (Laughter.)

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  He was a great student.  I'm sure he got

    As.  I don't remember, but I remember how great he was.

         So this is a little off the topic, but there was that letter that

    was written to the HLC, and they also forwarded it to all of our

    elected officials.

         Is that anything that we feel the need to send, you know, them

    the results of what HLC said, or do you think that they don't even

    care, they don't need any, you know, evidence that HLC didn't think

    what was written was accurate or affecting the college?

         Yeah, if they didn't read it, we don't want to send them

    anything, but anyway, I was just wondering what the, you know, what

    the process in those kind of situations is.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  So my gut reaction would be to say we don't

    bring up topics to them that they don't bring to us, especially if

    it's things that are touchy.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  Just sort of building on what Wade was

    saying, I agree that the students should be first.  In my experience,

    last year, like you said, the elected officials were far more

    interested in talking to them than any of us, and so would I

    (smiling).  I think putting them first makes sense.

         The other thing, I think there were probably too many of us.  I

    mean, we were a big group with, like, all five of us and then the





    three students and then the staff that were along.

         I wonder if, and it may make sense if we are maybe more strategic

    about which of us in terms of the board members are attending which

    one of those meetings, make it no more than two or maybe three of us.

    You can divvy that up based on however you want.  Maybe we assess who

    has relationships with who, or if no one has relationships, some

    other criteria to use.

         The meetings were short, because they don't have ton of time, and

    I feel like sometimes introductions consumed half of it when we were

    just going around the room trying to say who everybody was rather

    than getting into the meat of what the actual issue is.

         You're certainly not going to offend me if you're, like, Greg,

    don't go to this one, go to that one.  Wherever you need me is fine.

    It may make sense for us not to be this group of 12 or whatever we

    were last time trying to cram into all those little conference rooms.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  I appreciate you saying that, and I do think,

    this is a thing that Tracy raises often as a concern, and I did

    mention it to the chancellor, as well, when we spoke earlier that it

    is something we should think about, ways to limit our number.

         One thought I had, if you're amenable to it, is maybe we can have

    the list of meetings and then say, you know, have, like you said,

    based on your relationships or your preferences, have the board

    choose sort of one or two that you go to, and so that we have one or

    two, no more than three board members at any one given meeting.

         Then the students, we can do the same thing with.  I also told





    Tracy I'm comfortable standing in the hallway while everybody is in

    the meeting, if that's necessary, to a larger meeting.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  I'm fine if you want to send it to us, but

    honestly, if you want to recommend for each one, and we can always

    change it, but that might help get it going, if you think me and

    Maria should go to this one and Wade and Theresa should go to that

    one, whatever it is.  If someone needs to call me and tell me who do

    I know or who do I have a good relationship with or not a good

    relationship with, I'm happy to have that conversation.

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Wasn't that the way we did it the first

    day?  Because I didn't go to Mark Kelly's meeting.  I think some of

    us were doing something else.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yeah, we did have one last time.  Senator Kelly

    was addressing all of the community colleges of Arizona in a big room

    in the hotel, and then we had a meeting with his education staffer.

    So we sort of split into two groups.

         Then I think there was one day when we did -- on the House side,

    the rooms are even a little smaller too so that becomes trickier as

    well.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  One of the things I'd like the group to

    consider, we haven't made a decision, but the board members that are

    elected and have a six-year term should probably have priority to

    those meetings.  That's just thinking about it.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  It also may help us if we were given the

    information on who the staffer is in their office that's going to





    meet with us when we're not meeting with one of the officials in case

    we might know them or know of them or something like that, help make

    that decision on who should go where.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yeah.  Yeah, that makes sense.  We can name the

    staffer.  Sometimes there is a change where you meet with the staffer

    when you didn't plan to.  I mentioned before that often it's not a

    slight to meet with the staff.  The staffers do a lot of the legwork,

    very knowledgeable, very often the experts that the elected officials

    look to for the movement of legislation, and so it is a great person

    to speak to in that sense.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  This is not something you don't already

    know, but if the students can make it personal, can tell an anecdote

    how the Pell Grant helped them, could have helped them had it not

    been taxable, something along those lines, I could have bought

    groceries for my family or I could have paid my car insurance, or I

    could have done that and it would have helped me stay out of loans.

    Because if we can send the message we're trying to keep our kids out

    of debt, and if they could make that more personal, it certainly is

    more effective, I think.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yeah.  Thanks for that, yes.

         Any other thoughts?

         I can briefly give a sort of overview of the three students we

    are taking, which is exciting.

         We have three students again this year.  One is Roxanna L., who

    is first-generation American, first-generation college student.  She





    is receiving a TRiO grant, so can help us to emphasize the importance

    of TRiO in her studies.

         She's doing her associate's in chemical engineering in Northwest

    Campus right now.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  Excuse me.  Can I ask you -- you said

    first-generation American?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yes.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  What does that mean?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Meaning that her parents are immigrants.

         Minerva Torres is a nontraditional student.  She came to the

    college to do adult basic ed for college and career, and she is a

    student ambassador for the college.  She came from Honduras where she

    was a professional, and then her family emigrated to the United

    States and couldn't stay there.

         So all of her professional degrees and all of her expertise sort

    of had to be put on the shelf and she had to, in many ways, start

    again.  So she learned about the adult basic ed and the English

    learner studies.  So she started to learn English.  As she got better

    at learning English, she became a student ambassador.

         She moved into the ESL program, and now she's also doing her

    degree in translation/interpretation.  She was a keynote at the

    Arizona Adult Ed Initiative.  She's pretty inspirational.

         Then the third student we are bringing is Brandon Warren, who is

    an aviation student.  So we can highlight our center of excellence

    there and some of the unique offerings that the college does there.





         Brandon's story is interesting, because he originally did an

    associate's degree in criminal justice at Pima, and then finished

    that degree and discovered, in applying for the police academy, that

    he was color-blind and so ineligible.

         He went to sort of his fallback plan and he started again, and

    he's doing this aviation degree, and it's another exciting story.

    Also a Pell recipient.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Could you maybe put those short bios on a

    sheet of paper and send it to us so we don't embarrass ourselves in

    front of the students?  Which won't guarantee that, but it will help

    us.  (Laughter.)

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Could we have a little mixer to get to know

    them before we're there?  So instead of us talking about ourselves,

    when we're there, we're just ready to go, and we have sort of talked

    about who's going to say what and that sort of thing?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  I'd love to do that.  Yeah, I'll see.  It's

    sometimes tricky to work their schedules now that they are starting

    their new semester.

         But another thing I was thinking along that line is we

    traditionally do a dinner with the chancellor, and the chancellor

    mentioned she'd like to do that again that first night when we

    arrive.

         One of the mistakes I sort of made last year, we had gotten off

    the plane, came to this thing and we all sat at one end of the table,

    and I'd like to sort of find a way where we can mix in so that the





    students are around so that board members have a chance to talk one

    on one with students rather than having to shout across the table to

    say hello.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  (Off microphone.)

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  New restaurant?  Okay.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  If we can't make it work when we are still

    in Tucson, I wonder if there is a way, instead of using -- I agree

    with everything you said, by the way.  But instead of using that

    dinner, I don't know when everyone is arriving and all that kind of

    stuff, maybe there is a way we can all get together not around a

    table right before we go to dinner or something, just have a chance

    to kind of socialize without the restaurant noise and yelling across

    the table and all that kind of stuff, to combine those together, if

    we're not able to do it based on their schedules when we're here.  At

    least we'll all be there presumably that first day.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Well, we have a few weeks before the trip, and

    so I will see, will work with Andrea and see if we can find a

    workable time for everybody to get together.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Give us a quick overview on what the

    orientation for these students looks like.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  So we invited the students, and then we do a lot

    of the paperwork and stuff.  Then I have done these sort of informal

    Zooms, essentially.  During our interview process, we give them a lot

    of the background of what we expect from them and what would be

    helpful when they are making their visit.





         Then I have sort of a meet for them to meet one another.  It's

    online.  And then we talk about other things.  We go over making sure

    that you're prepared for the D.C. weather and all those things

    (smiling).

         Then we go over, once again, sort of things that would be helpful

    for them to share.  The students, I think, they're telling their

    story, and they're sharing sort of the bits we have said, you know,

    it's helpful to highlight that you're a TRiO student, stuff like

    that.  And they take it very well from there.

         >> MR. GREG TAYLOR:  I got that text message from Andrea earlier

    telling me I need to get on my e-mail and fill out that White House

    form, which I did.  Where does that timingwise, assuming it happens,

    where does that fit?  Maybe I just missed it when I was looking at

    the schedule.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Yeah, so that is complicated, because we don't

    know until, I mean, it's sort of the way the White House works

    whether we will be able to go at all, and if so, what the time is,

    window is, and which day it is.

         There is sort of a two-day window that they were asking about,

    which is the Tuesday and the Wednesday.  On the agenda, the Monday is

    sort of full of conference activities.  Then Tuesday is sort of the

    first half of the day, and then the afternoon is meant to be visiting

    Hill time, and then the same on Wednesday.

         So they'll give a window for visiting, which can be as long or as

    short as you want, but it's probably about a 20-minute tour.  It





    should be workable.

         I think if there was a conflict, we could decide, you know, once

    again, which members are going to be joining the meeting and which

    ones are going to go on the tour instead, which is a difficult choice

    to make, but it might be necessary if there is a conflict.

         >> MS. MARIA GARCIA:  Can we submit our spouses' names to visit,

    to do the tour, yes or no?

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Andrea re-sent it today and said we have to

    fill it out, and if you're bringing somebody, they have to fill it

    out.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Can you give us a brief overview of the

    impact that the U.S. Department of Education has on this college,

    what purse strings are aligned and available?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  So I don't have a complete picture of that.  I

    think that's probably a better question for Dave, Dr. Bea, but we do

    have in the sort of that part 2 of this, we do have a lot of sort of

    examples of grants and funding.

         We are waiting.  Some of this will be updated also, where we are

    trying to get specific numbers for the calendar year 2023 about the

    number of active grants and the dollar amount that we do annually.

    We haven't gotten that number, that figure yet, but we will have that

    in the final document for this.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Does that money go through the U.S.

    Department of Education?

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Some of those grants will be through education.





    Some of them will be through other federal agencies.  But this is

    meant to be all, the full picture.  Then you can see here we also say

    the total Pell Grants that disbursed in the 2022/'23 school year was

    almost 24 million.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  So that grant you were talking about, was it

    Title V?

         >> (Voice in audience.)  Correct.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  That's through the U.S. Department of

    Education?

         >> (Voice in audience.)  Yes.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Knowing a little bit about that might help

    us, just on the side, have had that conversation about reinforcing

    what that means to distance learning or something along those lines,

    that if we do get a chance to mention something like that we could do

    an, oh, by the way, we thank you for appropriating that money for the

    department to give to us to make an impact on our online students

    that have alternative learning styles or something.

         So we might know that.  We could catch a staffer and mention that

    to them, as well.  Because I'm not so sure they are always aware of

    how that money flows to us sometimes and what impact it could

    possibly have on our students.  Just a thought.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Great.  Okay.

         Any other thoughts?  Great.  Thank you.

         >> DR. WADE McLEAN:  Are we going to get a budget, a federal

    budget in the near future?  No.  Always good news, right?





    (Laughter.)

         And I take it the governor's budget is dead on arrival?  Most of

    it?  Yeah, okay.

         >> JOSEPH MAIS:  Thank you.

         >> In the budget she submitted, that did not give us any money.

    You mean that budget?

         >> MS. THERESA RIEL:  Yeah, I think she did mention higher

    education, but there was no money allocated.  At least they are

    thinking about us, but... put your money where your mouth is, right?

    (Smiling.)

         Anything else?  That's it?

         Okay.  We're going to adjourn this meeting.  Thank you,

    everybody.

         (Adjournment.)





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    REPRESENTED WORDS, INCORRECT SPELLINGS, TRANSMISSION ERRORS, AND

    STENOTYPE SYMBOLS OR NONSENSICAL WORDS. THIS IS NOT A LEGAL DOCUMENT

    AND MAY CONTAIN COPYRIGHTED, PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION.

             THIS FILE SHALL NOT BE DISCLOSED IN ANY FORM (WRITTEN OR

    ELECTRONIC) AS A VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OR POSTED TO ANY WEBSITE OR

    PUBLIC FORUM OR SHARED WITHOUT THE EXPRESS WRITTEN CONSENT OF THE

    HIRING PARTY AND/OR THE CART PROVIDER. THIS IS NOT AN OFFICIAL

    TRANSCRIPT AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON FOR PURPOSES OF VERBATIM

    CITATION.

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